Metallic Pea

Frustrating People Since 1971.

This Gives a New Meaning To ‘Women and Children First’

with 15 comments

    

‘This heap is a witness, and the pillar is a witness, that I will not pass over this heap to you, and you will not pass over this heap and this pillar to me, to do harm.’  ~ Genesis 31:52

Building upon my post of a couple of days ago:

‘[Israeli Rabbi Morchecai] Eliyahu ruled that there was absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians during a potential massive military offensive on Gaza aimed at stopping the rocket launchings.’

If I were to hear this coming from the pulpit of a Christian church I would be infuriated.

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Written by ninepoundhammer

January 12, 2009 at 12:47 pm

Posted in General

15 Responses

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  1. is the discriminate killing of civilians ok?

    Jackasic

    January 12, 2009 at 8:36 pm

  2. @Brandon: I am a bit incredulous to your statement. If you read the article–and my intent by posting it–you’ll get the answer: NO. In fact, I have said (and the article states many times) that the same actions undertaken by Hamas–or anyone else–in which noncombatants are killed without regard, is unacceptable and evil. I am not defending such actions.

    However, I also am not accepting Israel’s POLICY of attacking civilians and killing indiscriminately. I have criticised the U.S. for the same thing. (See my posts on Dresden, Hiroshima, etc.)

    I am not on the Palestinians’ side, per se–I am on the side of Right, as defined by the Bible. I also am asking people to THINK about what is going on over there. Ask yourself: WHY are the Palestinians acting as they do against Israel?

    Hint: It isn’t because ‘They Hate Our Freedoms.’

    ninepoundhammer

    January 12, 2009 at 8:43 pm

  3. Matt if it is Israel’s policy to kill civilians indiscriminately then why did the IDF drop leaflets warning civilians to evacuate targeted areas as is reported in this article:

    http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B485081.htm
    (sorry if it doesn’t link, I’m not as tech savy as I appear).

    The IDF dropped those leaflets knowing that they would fall into the hands of Hamas and give away their strategy, meaning they endangered the lives of their own soliders to save the lives of Palestinian civilians. The fact of the matter is Israel has done more to preserve the lives of Palestinian civilians than Hamas who has hidden amongst the civilain population using them as human shields.
    I think that the actions of the IDF speak louder than the words of one lone rabbi.

    Nate

    January 12, 2009 at 10:04 pm

  4. @Nate: I am not going to belabor the point. I disagree with your assessment of what is going on over there. The IDF is bombing cities. They have killed nearly 1,000 civilians. They have been forced to admit to bombing a clearly-marked U.N. school–AFTER they got caught lying about it by using a 2 year-old video tape as ‘evidence.’

    Dropping leaflets to ‘warn’ folks that you are going to start killing them does not excuse it. Where are they going to go, anyway? Israel has choked off Gaza with an illegal blockade for years–thus, the smuggling tunnels, etc. that have been built trying to get food, water, and medicine into the place.

    I reckon I just don’t understand why many folks can’t admit that Israel is ever wrong. About anything.

    I think if you were to read some of the foreign press accounts of what has been going on over there for 60 years rather than the propaganda CNN, CNBC, and Fox give us, it might surprise you. The truth is nearly 180 degrees opposite what we are consistently told by the AIPAC mouthpieces.

    ninepoundhammer

    January 13, 2009 at 7:59 am

  5. You seem to be under the impression that I have not studied Middle Eastern politics beyond clicking on headlines at CNN or Fox. As a matter of fact, I have studied both media and academic sources that presented both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its history. Somehow, in spite of this research, I have come to view the Israeli-Palestinian conflict differently than you do.

    But the source of my knowledge of Middle Eastern politics is beyond the point I was trying to make, which was that I think your assertion that it is Israel’s policy to kill civilians indiscriminately is dubious. Your evidence is the words of one rabbi who may or may not speak for the Israeli government; your article is vague on that point. I agree that civilian deaths are regrettable and should be punished if they prove to be intentional, but the death of Palestinian civilians has more to do with Hamas hiding amongst civilians and using them as human shields than the IDF intentionally targeting them. Perhaps Hamas deserves the criticism for using tacits that lead to the death of their fellow Palestinians.

    The Israeli government is obligated to protect its citizens. Given the actions of Hamas this is a difficult task to fulfill and avoid casualties and hardships for the Palestinian people. Israel should be criticized when it goes overboard, but retains the right to defend itself. Based on what I’ve read, it is Hamas that is primarily responsible for civilian casualties.

    Nate

    January 13, 2009 at 10:03 pm

  6. @Nate: Fair enough; I do know that you are well-read, so I apologise if I insinuated otherwise. I was primarily speaking in general terms (in the universal ‘you’, if you will).

    However, I still differ with your assessment almost in its totality. In this specific instance, I dispute that Hamas is ‘hiding among civilians’ or using them as ‘human shields.’ Where are they to go? The entire Gaza Strip has been blockaded for years; so much so that they have had to build tunnels to get in and out! Would you suggest that they march into an open field and take on the far superior IDF head-to-head?

    As for the article, I don’t think it’s fair to accuse me of basing my entire point of view on that. It is just another example of the support for that point of view in Israel. It is one of the MANY things that has a cumulative effect.

    Israel has been oppressing and killing Palestinian civilians for decades. That point is not open for debate, it is simply a fact.

    I ask again (for Brandon, too): Why do you support Israel so adamantly?

    ninepoundhammer

    January 14, 2009 at 6:20 am

  7. matt doesnt usually stake his claim off of merely one scholarly article – there is usually quite a bit of the onion and national enquirer in the mix

    em

    January 14, 2009 at 8:07 am

  8. @Eric: Don’t forget ‘News of the World’ and the ‘New York Post’. (And that I believe virtually everything I read on the Internets.)

    ninepoundhammer

    January 14, 2009 at 8:54 am

  9. If anyone is interested, here is an article detailing the fact that the Israeli Navy (in collusion with Egypt) will not allow a CARGO ship from Iran with FOOD and MEDICINE to dock at Gaza. [http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231917085424&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull]

    The illegal blockade continues.

    ninepoundhammer

    January 14, 2009 at 10:01 am

  10. If Israel is a bad place to be, how bad must Cuba be?
    Check this article for what people are doing to leave Cuba…
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123189390011979489.html

    They are fleeing Cuba for Israel! Of course they are converting to Judaism first. Interesting though that when Cuba started allowing Jews to leave “easily” it increased the number of Jews in Cuba dramatically.

    em

    January 14, 2009 at 11:01 am

  11. @Eric: Israel is a great place to be…IF you are a Jew.

    ninepoundhammer

    January 14, 2009 at 11:11 am

  12. Just to clarify, I meant that your specific claim that it is Israeli policy to target civilians appears to be based solely on that article. I know that your assessment of the situation as a whole is based on a broader body of evidence. Like you, I did not mean to imply that you haven’t read up on the situation.

    Nate

    January 14, 2009 at 8:14 pm

  13. I think there is only one way to settle this: a Dance Off! I’ll meet you at the old abandoned Members Only wharehouse down by the docks. (And no knives!)

    ninepoundhammer

    January 15, 2009 at 5:55 am

  14. thats funny…you should have heard what “bubba” had to say about dancing last night!

    em

    January 15, 2009 at 8:52 am

  15. No way, I never go to a dance off without my knife.

    Nate

    January 15, 2009 at 9:09 pm


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